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Thread: My Church

  1. #31
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    Are you absolutely sure it doesnt work that way? When you say it doesn't work that way you are again claiming knowledge of and insisting that there is such a thing as an absolute truth.

    in other words:
    Yes it does work that way....no it doesn't work that way. Yes it does...no it doesn't. yes it does. no it doesn't. It can't be both. That's the law of non contradiction. One is absolutely true. Yours or mine. You are claiming knowledge of an absolute truth when you say you cannot know an absolute truth; you are claiming knowledge of an absolute truth when you claim something is indefensible.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aboveallislove View Post
    Are you absolutely sure it doesnt work that way?
    Yeah and I'm absolutely sure it has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
    34 CF The Netherlands

  3. #33
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    seriously?!?! I directly quoted your post in two respect to point out your fallacy!

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaw View Post
    Anien, I did forget to mention something that I think is generally misunderstood. Faith and Belief are absolutely not the same thing. Faith is a product of revelation - and comes from inspiration. An "aha" moment if you will and frankly God inspired. It is not a choice; it is knowledge. In its deepest sense. It is what I venture to say you will find after reading the Bible, although it certainly may come in many other ways. Belief on the other hand is what you mention - a choice you make to take something as true potentially without any proof. You can believe in Santa Claus if you choose, but you have faith in God, not of your own volition, but from the knowledge that He exists.
    Those were tough concepts for me, until I had Faith. And frankly, I still use the words interchangeably too!
    Whatever gets you through your trials with life and CF, I think is wonderful! But this thread is really about what gets us through, isn't it? Imogene shared. Can others tell us what gets them through?
    No way, faith can only exist in the absence of knowledge. If somebody knew the truth and could prove it there would be one single religion.

    If tomorrow Jesus appeared in Central Park and started making miracles and healing people everyone would become a Christian that same day because there would be no doubt. What if instead of Jesus appeared in Central Park Isis, Shiva, Thor o Teutates?? everyone would quit being Christian or muslim because there was knowledge of the existance of a real god.

    What I mean is that you can only have faith if you dont know for sure, thats why there cant be faith without doubts

  5. #35
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    Anien2 and Gammaw aren't too far apart. There are evidences of a person's belief in God, but there is also something intangible about it. Believing in God is having a knowledge but the knowledge isn't perfect. There are some great scriptures that back up this line of thought:

    From Hebrews 1:11 (New Testatment) - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen."

    Or 2 Corinthian 13:12 (N.T.) - "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am know."

    Or Alma 32:21 (Book of Mormon) - "Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen which are true."
    Thirtysomething Dad of three (IVFw/ICSI), Mormon, Engineer in Utah.
    I was dx at 1 yr (failure to thrive), D▲F508, FEV1~94%, PA and MSSA, PI.
    2 brothers w/CF, 3 siblings w/out. My wife and parents are saints.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ethan508 View Post
    Anien2 and Gammaw aren't too far apart. There are evidences of a person's belief in God, but there is also something intangible about it. Believing in God is having a knowledge but the knowledge isn't perfect. There are some great scriptures that back up this line of thought:

    From Hebrews 1:11 (New Testatment) - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen."

    Or 2 Corinthian 13:12 (N.T.) - "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am know."

    Or Alma 32:21 (Book of Mormon) - "Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen which are true."
    Now change "god" by "santa claus" and youŽll see that it makes perfect sense.

    Except that nobody 12 or older believes that santa claus is a real person living in the north pole.

  7. #37
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    Anien, Of course Santa Claus is based in part upon a real person but he didn't claim to be God. Jesus did. Jesus is (was) also a real person as all acknowledge. And I believe St. Nicholas existed, although I really can't prove it, can I. There are historical recountings of him, written texts (ah . . . kinda like the New Testament is an historical recounting of Jesus?) but I can't "prove" his existence, except by belief? or is it having faith? In what? In our historical documents? Just where does any of our knowledge come from? But then I can rely upon Wikipedia, or scientific journals, but not the Bible? Nah. I won't even go there. So where do we get any of our "knowledge"?

    I love and enjoy our conversation. I have shared your struggle. I found that the more intense I became in denying God and in affirming my agnosticism/atheism, the more God was really spiritually chasing me. Knocking on my head to pay attention, think it through, search, argue, and potentially find Him. It's a scary place. It's much easier to dismiss Him than it is to acknowledge Him. At least it was to me. And the closer He came, the more vehement I argued against Him, because I found the prospect of believing in Him, having faith, downright embarrassing and annoying and troublesome. But . . . . He waited.

    Believe it or not, I am not generally a proselytizer! But I have always enjoyed discussion, no matter what the topic. And I am a Believer.

    You're absolutely right. "Nobody 12 or older believes that santa claus is a real person living in the north pole." But billions of people believe in God, and Jesus. How did that happen?

    Again, with God chasing you so hard, put an end to the chase one way or the other - read the treatise on Him, the journal, the primary source of the claim that He exists, the Encyclopedia Britannica on God and Jesus, the first source that has remained the most popular book in history for thousands of years (wow, talk about the New York Times List. . . ) just to check out the "evidence" for yourself. Read the Bible. No one will knock on your door and drag you off to Church on Sunday for having opened the Book. No news flashes will go out and point at you as a "Believer." It's a research project. You will either gain more ammo for your disbelief, or . . . . Just read it to see what you think.

    And in the meantime, I ask what I wondered when this thread started! What sustains you through the trials of life and CF?

    Blessings.

  8. #38
    Awesome post. Love to see believers being bold in their faith. Our congregation does a lifestream of all services including praise and worship time. It is somewhat of an alternative to the traditional church. We are a Messianic Congregation. That means that we are Jews and Gentiles worshipping the God of the Bible, the God of our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and we use the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation. We continue to teach from the Torah, (the books of Moses--first five books), and we teach and practice the New Covenant through our faith/trust in Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah, who was foretold by the Old Testament prophets and who is God who came to earth in the flesh to dwell among his people, to show them the way to the Father in Heaven. We are saved by grace, through faith in the completed work of Yeshua, who hung on the cross, died to atone for our sins, was buried to conquer death, and rose to give new life to those who are born again and accept this completed work by faith.

    Our service is on the Sabbath. Friday evening service starts at 7:30 pm eastern time, and Saturday, 11:00 am eastern time. Our services are a bit long, as we have communion every Friday eve before worship, then the message. On Saturday, we have worship for about an hour, then a few minutes of meet and greet, then a Torah procession service with a reading from the weekly Torah portion, then the message. Awesome Spirit led message. Our Rabbi/Pastor does not even use notes or prepare for his messages. He listens to the Holy Spirit and shares directly from God. Powerful, life-changing messages.

    When I am too weak to make it in person, I get to watch online. What a blessing. Our service is not for everyone, but for those believers who want more from God, and want to go deeper in the word and their relationship with the Lord, this is the service for you. I you watch online, and you see a tall guy with the oxygen tank strapped over his shoulder, that is me.
    www.MishkanDavid.org
    53 yrs, D508(Class II) & R1066(Class I) -- 3 yrs past my expiration date due to adult stem cell treatments! Thank God! My own journey with CF www.AngeloDiStefano.com

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