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Mockingbird
02-13-2008, 07:25 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Solo</b></i>
Mockingbird, you would be right in expecting a Christian to understand his faith better, but I have been on the other side of the fence; therefore I feel I am in an ideal position to see which side has more broken pillars in it's doctrinal foundation. And Christianity is about as strong as a paper house in a hurricane. </end quote></div>

Okay. Show me how well you understand my faith. Tell me about all these broken pillars that you've found in the foundation of Christ.

Mockingbird
02-13-2008, 07:25 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Solo</b></i>
Mockingbird, you would be right in expecting a Christian to understand his faith better, but I have been on the other side of the fence; therefore I feel I am in an ideal position to see which side has more broken pillars in it's doctrinal foundation. And Christianity is about as strong as a paper house in a hurricane. </end quote></div>

Okay. Show me how well you understand my faith. Tell me about all these broken pillars that you've found in the foundation of Christ.

Mockingbird
02-13-2008, 07:25 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Solo</b></i>
Mockingbird, you would be right in expecting a Christian to understand his faith better, but I have been on the other side of the fence; therefore I feel I am in an ideal position to see which side has more broken pillars in it's doctrinal foundation. And Christianity is about as strong as a paper house in a hurricane. </end quote></div>

Okay. Show me how well you understand my faith. Tell me about all these broken pillars that you've found in the foundation of Christ.

Mockingbird
02-13-2008, 07:25 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Solo</b></i>
Mockingbird, you would be right in expecting a Christian to understand his faith better, but I have been on the other side of the fence; therefore I feel I am in an ideal position to see which side has more broken pillars in it's doctrinal foundation. And Christianity is about as strong as a paper house in a hurricane. </end quote>

Okay. Show me how well you understand my faith. Tell me about all these broken pillars that you've found in the foundation of Christ.

Mockingbird
02-13-2008, 07:25 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Solo</b></i>
Mockingbird, you would be right in expecting a Christian to understand his faith better, but I have been on the other side of the fence; therefore I feel I am in an ideal position to see which side has more broken pillars in it's doctrinal foundation. And Christianity is about as strong as a paper house in a hurricane. </end quote>

Okay. Show me how well you understand my faith. Tell me about all these broken pillars that you've found in the foundation of Christ.

Solo
02-14-2008, 01:37 AM
Whoa there Mockingbird, did I strike a nerve? I sense an untapped reservoir of belligerence? But seeing is I've never been one to back down from a challenge, I accept. Where do you want me to start? How about the beginning? So God made the universe (he didn't mention aliens) in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Why would an all powerful God need to rest, why couldn't he think the universe into existence? As I was saying, since there was nobody to work the ground he made Adam right from dust. But right before this impromptu making of Adam, God had looked over everything he created and deemed it good. (Yet the EVIL serpent was in the garden) God then remembered that Adam needed an amiga, so he knocked him out and thieved a rib from him to make Eve. Then God brought all the millions of animal species to Adam to name. (Adam had to have one major migraine, first being knocked out, then forced to name millions of animals.) That must have been quite a trick, how on earth did God manage to bring a dinosaur to Adam without it seeing Adam as food? But God has his ways. In Genesis 2:9 we find out that good trees grow, one that was pleasing to the eye and one that was good for food. But directly in the center of the garden were the trees of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which begs yet another question- why would a loving God place the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall in their view?
So God makes a tree pleasing to the eyes to draw Adam and eve in not unlike lambs to the slaughter. God makes a tree good for food, then plays "hot potato" with evil and hides it in a tree, where Adam will never find it.
Back on track here, God had given Adam and eve a harsh warning, he said the day they eat from the tree that they will surely die. They didn't, in fact they lived hundreds of years after the incident. You might say God meant a spiritual death; but there is no proof of that, it's merely a blind postulation. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know what death meant? How were they supposed to practice obedience? To teach a someone that is a blank slate something, you must liken it to their environment. For instance, how would I go about teaching a caveman that the word "gaugua" means bus in Spanish, he has no clue what a bus is? Anyway (my mind wonders) how were Adam and eve to know God was telling the truth? How did they know God didn't send the serpent?
So the serpent, whom God created, strolls into the scene and basically tells eve that God is lying and the fruit is good, so both Adam and Eve eat. So God looks for them (if he's omniscient, he should already know.) When God said, "Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?" Adam should have replied, "You tell us, after all you know everything and created everything." So God throws a hissy fit and punishes them. Now according to Christian doctrine, manknind is born "sinners" because of 2 people's decision in a prehistoric time. How is that fair? No fair God would make everyone suffer over a decision of just 2 people. It's a bit like if you're dad goes on a killing rampage and gets caught, then gets 3 life sentences in jail. Well, he won't live that long, so by Christian logic YOU must go to jail to serve the remainder of his terms. It sounds absurd, doesn't it?

Mockingbird, the bible is the best recruitment tool for atheism so far. Using their own bible against them, it's a bit like using a robber's gun against him. The bible defies all common sense and reason. It is nothing more than an article of faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with rationality. If God is indeed perfect, he picked mentally crippled people to copy his words down. But seeing is humans wrote it, it is no different from any other book. If you ask me, I can't fathom why the majority believe in a 2,000 year old story about a guy nailed to a log of wood but at the same time, fail to also believe in the easter bunny, or santa.

Yea well, that's my take on the first broken pillar. It's your time in the hot seat Mockingbird, the balls in you're court. Remember Mockingbird, you asked for it; you called me out.

Solo
02-14-2008, 01:37 AM
Whoa there Mockingbird, did I strike a nerve? I sense an untapped reservoir of belligerence? But seeing is I've never been one to back down from a challenge, I accept. Where do you want me to start? How about the beginning? So God made the universe (he didn't mention aliens) in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Why would an all powerful God need to rest, why couldn't he think the universe into existence? As I was saying, since there was nobody to work the ground he made Adam right from dust. But right before this impromptu making of Adam, God had looked over everything he created and deemed it good. (Yet the EVIL serpent was in the garden) God then remembered that Adam needed an amiga, so he knocked him out and thieved a rib from him to make Eve. Then God brought all the millions of animal species to Adam to name. (Adam had to have one major migraine, first being knocked out, then forced to name millions of animals.) That must have been quite a trick, how on earth did God manage to bring a dinosaur to Adam without it seeing Adam as food? But God has his ways. In Genesis 2:9 we find out that good trees grow, one that was pleasing to the eye and one that was good for food. But directly in the center of the garden were the trees of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which begs yet another question- why would a loving God place the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall in their view?
So God makes a tree pleasing to the eyes to draw Adam and eve in not unlike lambs to the slaughter. God makes a tree good for food, then plays "hot potato" with evil and hides it in a tree, where Adam will never find it.
Back on track here, God had given Adam and eve a harsh warning, he said the day they eat from the tree that they will surely die. They didn't, in fact they lived hundreds of years after the incident. You might say God meant a spiritual death; but there is no proof of that, it's merely a blind postulation. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know what death meant? How were they supposed to practice obedience? To teach a someone that is a blank slate something, you must liken it to their environment. For instance, how would I go about teaching a caveman that the word "gaugua" means bus in Spanish, he has no clue what a bus is? Anyway (my mind wonders) how were Adam and eve to know God was telling the truth? How did they know God didn't send the serpent?
So the serpent, whom God created, strolls into the scene and basically tells eve that God is lying and the fruit is good, so both Adam and Eve eat. So God looks for them (if he's omniscient, he should already know.) When God said, "Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?" Adam should have replied, "You tell us, after all you know everything and created everything." So God throws a hissy fit and punishes them. Now according to Christian doctrine, manknind is born "sinners" because of 2 people's decision in a prehistoric time. How is that fair? No fair God would make everyone suffer over a decision of just 2 people. It's a bit like if you're dad goes on a killing rampage and gets caught, then gets 3 life sentences in jail. Well, he won't live that long, so by Christian logic YOU must go to jail to serve the remainder of his terms. It sounds absurd, doesn't it?

Mockingbird, the bible is the best recruitment tool for atheism so far. Using their own bible against them, it's a bit like using a robber's gun against him. The bible defies all common sense and reason. It is nothing more than an article of faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with rationality. If God is indeed perfect, he picked mentally crippled people to copy his words down. But seeing is humans wrote it, it is no different from any other book. If you ask me, I can't fathom why the majority believe in a 2,000 year old story about a guy nailed to a log of wood but at the same time, fail to also believe in the easter bunny, or santa.

Yea well, that's my take on the first broken pillar. It's your time in the hot seat Mockingbird, the balls in you're court. Remember Mockingbird, you asked for it; you called me out.

Solo
02-14-2008, 01:37 AM
Whoa there Mockingbird, did I strike a nerve? I sense an untapped reservoir of belligerence? But seeing is I've never been one to back down from a challenge, I accept. Where do you want me to start? How about the beginning? So God made the universe (he didn't mention aliens) in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Why would an all powerful God need to rest, why couldn't he think the universe into existence? As I was saying, since there was nobody to work the ground he made Adam right from dust. But right before this impromptu making of Adam, God had looked over everything he created and deemed it good. (Yet the EVIL serpent was in the garden) God then remembered that Adam needed an amiga, so he knocked him out and thieved a rib from him to make Eve. Then God brought all the millions of animal species to Adam to name. (Adam had to have one major migraine, first being knocked out, then forced to name millions of animals.) That must have been quite a trick, how on earth did God manage to bring a dinosaur to Adam without it seeing Adam as food? But God has his ways. In Genesis 2:9 we find out that good trees grow, one that was pleasing to the eye and one that was good for food. But directly in the center of the garden were the trees of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which begs yet another question- why would a loving God place the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall in their view?
So God makes a tree pleasing to the eyes to draw Adam and eve in not unlike lambs to the slaughter. God makes a tree good for food, then plays "hot potato" with evil and hides it in a tree, where Adam will never find it.
Back on track here, God had given Adam and eve a harsh warning, he said the day they eat from the tree that they will surely die. They didn't, in fact they lived hundreds of years after the incident. You might say God meant a spiritual death; but there is no proof of that, it's merely a blind postulation. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know what death meant? How were they supposed to practice obedience? To teach a someone that is a blank slate something, you must liken it to their environment. For instance, how would I go about teaching a caveman that the word "gaugua" means bus in Spanish, he has no clue what a bus is? Anyway (my mind wonders) how were Adam and eve to know God was telling the truth? How did they know God didn't send the serpent?
So the serpent, whom God created, strolls into the scene and basically tells eve that God is lying and the fruit is good, so both Adam and Eve eat. So God looks for them (if he's omniscient, he should already know.) When God said, "Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?" Adam should have replied, "You tell us, after all you know everything and created everything." So God throws a hissy fit and punishes them. Now according to Christian doctrine, manknind is born "sinners" because of 2 people's decision in a prehistoric time. How is that fair? No fair God would make everyone suffer over a decision of just 2 people. It's a bit like if you're dad goes on a killing rampage and gets caught, then gets 3 life sentences in jail. Well, he won't live that long, so by Christian logic YOU must go to jail to serve the remainder of his terms. It sounds absurd, doesn't it?

Mockingbird, the bible is the best recruitment tool for atheism so far. Using their own bible against them, it's a bit like using a robber's gun against him. The bible defies all common sense and reason. It is nothing more than an article of faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with rationality. If God is indeed perfect, he picked mentally crippled people to copy his words down. But seeing is humans wrote it, it is no different from any other book. If you ask me, I can't fathom why the majority believe in a 2,000 year old story about a guy nailed to a log of wood but at the same time, fail to also believe in the easter bunny, or santa.

Yea well, that's my take on the first broken pillar. It's your time in the hot seat Mockingbird, the balls in you're court. Remember Mockingbird, you asked for it; you called me out.

Solo
02-14-2008, 01:37 AM
Whoa there Mockingbird, did I strike a nerve? I sense an untapped reservoir of belligerence? But seeing is I've never been one to back down from a challenge, I accept. Where do you want me to start? How about the beginning? So God made the universe (he didn't mention aliens) in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Why would an all powerful God need to rest, why couldn't he think the universe into existence? As I was saying, since there was nobody to work the ground he made Adam right from dust. But right before this impromptu making of Adam, God had looked over everything he created and deemed it good. (Yet the EVIL serpent was in the garden) God then remembered that Adam needed an amiga, so he knocked him out and thieved a rib from him to make Eve. Then God brought all the millions of animal species to Adam to name. (Adam had to have one major migraine, first being knocked out, then forced to name millions of animals.) That must have been quite a trick, how on earth did God manage to bring a dinosaur to Adam without it seeing Adam as food? But God has his ways. In Genesis 2:9 we find out that good trees grow, one that was pleasing to the eye and one that was good for food. But directly in the center of the garden were the trees of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which begs yet another question- why would a loving God place the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall in their view?
So God makes a tree pleasing to the eyes to draw Adam and eve in not unlike lambs to the slaughter. God makes a tree good for food, then plays "hot potato" with evil and hides it in a tree, where Adam will never find it.
Back on track here, God had given Adam and eve a harsh warning, he said the day they eat from the tree that they will surely die. They didn't, in fact they lived hundreds of years after the incident. You might say God meant a spiritual death; but there is no proof of that, it's merely a blind postulation. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know what death meant? How were they supposed to practice obedience? To teach a someone that is a blank slate something, you must liken it to their environment. For instance, how would I go about teaching a caveman that the word "gaugua" means bus in Spanish, he has no clue what a bus is? Anyway (my mind wonders) how were Adam and eve to know God was telling the truth? How did they know God didn't send the serpent?
So the serpent, whom God created, strolls into the scene and basically tells eve that God is lying and the fruit is good, so both Adam and Eve eat. So God looks for them (if he's omniscient, he should already know.) When God said, "Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?" Adam should have replied, "You tell us, after all you know everything and created everything." So God throws a hissy fit and punishes them. Now according to Christian doctrine, manknind is born "sinners" because of 2 people's decision in a prehistoric time. How is that fair? No fair God would make everyone suffer over a decision of just 2 people. It's a bit like if you're dad goes on a killing rampage and gets caught, then gets 3 life sentences in jail. Well, he won't live that long, so by Christian logic YOU must go to jail to serve the remainder of his terms. It sounds absurd, doesn't it?

Mockingbird, the bible is the best recruitment tool for atheism so far. Using their own bible against them, it's a bit like using a robber's gun against him. The bible defies all common sense and reason. It is nothing more than an article of faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with rationality. If God is indeed perfect, he picked mentally crippled people to copy his words down. But seeing is humans wrote it, it is no different from any other book. If you ask me, I can't fathom why the majority believe in a 2,000 year old story about a guy nailed to a log of wood but at the same time, fail to also believe in the easter bunny, or santa.

Yea well, that's my take on the first broken pillar. It's your time in the hot seat Mockingbird, the balls in you're court. Remember Mockingbird, you asked for it; you called me out.

Solo
02-14-2008, 01:37 AM
Whoa there Mockingbird, did I strike a nerve? I sense an untapped reservoir of belligerence? But seeing is I've never been one to back down from a challenge, I accept. Where do you want me to start? How about the beginning? So God made the universe (he didn't mention aliens) in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Why would an all powerful God need to rest, why couldn't he think the universe into existence? As I was saying, since there was nobody to work the ground he made Adam right from dust. But right before this impromptu making of Adam, God had looked over everything he created and deemed it good. (Yet the EVIL serpent was in the garden) God then remembered that Adam needed an amiga, so he knocked him out and thieved a rib from him to make Eve. Then God brought all the millions of animal species to Adam to name. (Adam had to have one major migraine, first being knocked out, then forced to name millions of animals.) That must have been quite a trick, how on earth did God manage to bring a dinosaur to Adam without it seeing Adam as food? But God has his ways. In Genesis 2:9 we find out that good trees grow, one that was pleasing to the eye and one that was good for food. But directly in the center of the garden were the trees of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which begs yet another question- why would a loving God place the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall in their view?
So God makes a tree pleasing to the eyes to draw Adam and eve in not unlike lambs to the slaughter. God makes a tree good for food, then plays "hot potato" with evil and hides it in a tree, where Adam will never find it.
Back on track here, God had given Adam and eve a harsh warning, he said the day they eat from the tree that they will surely die. They didn't, in fact they lived hundreds of years after the incident. You might say God meant a spiritual death; but there is no proof of that, it's merely a blind postulation. How were Adam and Eve supposed to know what death meant? How were they supposed to practice obedience? To teach a someone that is a blank slate something, you must liken it to their environment. For instance, how would I go about teaching a caveman that the word "gaugua" means bus in Spanish, he has no clue what a bus is? Anyway (my mind wonders) how were Adam and eve to know God was telling the truth? How did they know God didn't send the serpent?
So the serpent, whom God created, strolls into the scene and basically tells eve that God is lying and the fruit is good, so both Adam and Eve eat. So God looks for them (if he's omniscient, he should already know.) When God said, "Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?" Adam should have replied, "You tell us, after all you know everything and created everything." So God throws a hissy fit and punishes them. Now according to Christian doctrine, manknind is born "sinners" because of 2 people's decision in a prehistoric time. How is that fair? No fair God would make everyone suffer over a decision of just 2 people. It's a bit like if you're dad goes on a killing rampage and gets caught, then gets 3 life sentences in jail. Well, he won't live that long, so by Christian logic YOU must go to jail to serve the remainder of his terms. It sounds absurd, doesn't it?

Mockingbird, the bible is the best recruitment tool for atheism so far. Using their own bible against them, it's a bit like using a robber's gun against him. The bible defies all common sense and reason. It is nothing more than an article of faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with rationality. If God is indeed perfect, he picked mentally crippled people to copy his words down. But seeing is humans wrote it, it is no different from any other book. If you ask me, I can't fathom why the majority believe in a 2,000 year old story about a guy nailed to a log of wood but at the same time, fail to also believe in the easter bunny, or santa.

Yea well, that's my take on the first broken pillar. It's your time in the hot seat Mockingbird, the balls in you're court. Remember Mockingbird, you asked for it; you called me out.

Mockingbird
02-14-2008, 07:06 AM
<i>Why would God need to rest on the seventh day?</i>

In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity.

<i>Why would a loving God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?</i>

Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God.

However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in. As it says, "Let no one say when he is being tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend. Sin is simply separation from God.

Now, if God is the source of life, and sin is separation from God, then it follows that sin is separation from life. That is to say, death. Not spiritual death, as you have supposed, but condemnation of eternal death. As it says, "When you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness." Romans 6:16 and "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

<i> Why did God ask Adam ""Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?"</i>

I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10.

<i>What was the serpent doing in the garden, anyway?</i>

It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist.

<i>Why are we all condemned because of Adam's sin?</i>

In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is Jesus Christ.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, Jesus Christ, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Mockingbird
02-14-2008, 07:06 AM
<i>Why would God need to rest on the seventh day?</i>

In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity.

<i>Why would a loving God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?</i>

Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God.

However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in. As it says, "Let no one say when he is being tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend. Sin is simply separation from God.

Now, if God is the source of life, and sin is separation from God, then it follows that sin is separation from life. That is to say, death. Not spiritual death, as you have supposed, but condemnation of eternal death. As it says, "When you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness." Romans 6:16 and "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

<i> Why did God ask Adam ""Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?"</i>

I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10.

<i>What was the serpent doing in the garden, anyway?</i>

It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist.

<i>Why are we all condemned because of Adam's sin?</i>

In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is Jesus Christ.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, Jesus Christ, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Mockingbird
02-14-2008, 07:06 AM
<i>Why would God need to rest on the seventh day?</i>

In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity.

<i>Why would a loving God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?</i>

Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God.

However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in. As it says, "Let no one say when he is being tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend. Sin is simply separation from God.

Now, if God is the source of life, and sin is separation from God, then it follows that sin is separation from life. That is to say, death. Not spiritual death, as you have supposed, but condemnation of eternal death. As it says, "When you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness." Romans 6:16 and "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

<i> Why did God ask Adam ""Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?"</i>

I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10.

<i>What was the serpent doing in the garden, anyway?</i>

It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist.

<i>Why are we all condemned because of Adam's sin?</i>

In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is Jesus Christ.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, Jesus Christ, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Mockingbird
02-14-2008, 07:06 AM
<i>Why would God need to rest on the seventh day?</i>

In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity.

<i>Why would a loving God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?</i>

Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God.

However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in. As it says, "Let no one say when he is being tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend. Sin is simply separation from God.

Now, if God is the source of life, and sin is separation from God, then it follows that sin is separation from life. That is to say, death. Not spiritual death, as you have supposed, but condemnation of eternal death. As it says, "When you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness." Romans 6:16 and "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

<i> Why did God ask Adam ""Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?"</i>

I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10.

<i>What was the serpent doing in the garden, anyway?</i>

It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist.

<i>Why are we all condemned because of Adam's sin?</i>

In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is Jesus Christ.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, Jesus Christ, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Mockingbird
02-14-2008, 07:06 AM
<i>Why would God need to rest on the seventh day?</i>

In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity.

<i>Why would a loving God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?</i>

Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God.

However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in. As it says, "Let no one say when he is being tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then, when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend. Sin is simply separation from God.

Now, if God is the source of life, and sin is separation from God, then it follows that sin is separation from life. That is to say, death. Not spiritual death, as you have supposed, but condemnation of eternal death. As it says, "When you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness." Romans 6:16 and "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23.

As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9

<i> Why did God ask Adam ""Where were you and who told you to eat from the tree?"</i>

I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10.

<i>What was the serpent doing in the garden, anyway?</i>

It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist.

<i>Why are we all condemned because of Adam's sin?</i>

In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is Jesus Christ.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, Jesus Christ, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Solo
02-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Mockingbird, by no means am I blowing you off, I will reply, it's just that I got alot on my plate now. I don't really have the time to type out a long-winded response just yet.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Mockingbird, by no means am I blowing you off, I will reply, it's just that I got alot on my plate now. I don't really have the time to type out a long-winded response just yet.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Mockingbird, by no means am I blowing you off, I will reply, it's just that I got alot on my plate now. I don't really have the time to type out a long-winded response just yet.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Mockingbird, by no means am I blowing you off, I will reply, it's just that I got alot on my plate now. I don't really have the time to type out a long-winded response just yet.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Mockingbird, by no means am I blowing you off, I will reply, it's just that I got alot on my plate now. I don't really have the time to type out a long-winded response just yet.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-15-2008, 02:20 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity. </end quote></div>

My apologies for the late reply. I have off work every Tuesday and Wedsday; every other day is mighty hectic. With that being said, I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible. It's kinda like showing Spiderman exists by quoting Marvel comics. Quoting fiction does nothing. Mockingbird, you can sling bible quotes till your blue in the face, quoting from a book of fiction to prove that it's not fiction shows absolutely nothing; except for failure to take reality at face value. But in this case, seeing is we are talking about the God of the bible, since it is the only thing you have to show God exits, I'll deal.
But why couldn't he just think the universe into existence, or use pixie dust? What prompted God to make it, was he board? BTW, who was that speaking in Hebrews? Wasn't that Paul? How would he know anything about the creation of the universe? You can say he rested in any sense you wish; whatever helps you sleep better at night, but the fact remains that an omnipotent God had to rest.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God. </end quote></div>

No, in that scenario, if you love your child, you don't allow them the option of making a bad decision. If you had a baby in a crib, would you put a four-leaved clover on one side, then a Desert Eagle handgun in the other, and expect them to choose? Now no responsible parent would ever conceive of doing such an incompetent thing; if he did would be prosecuted for negligence. God placed two humans in a garden (It's like a baby in a crib), and placed the tree of evil and life in it. (like the four leaved clover and gun). How is this any different? Actually, I think it is worse if God knew beforehand that Adam would be tempted. Then the tree just served to tempt, and his tantrum resulted in a sadistic punishment.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in.</end quote></div>

Then why did he make it?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend.</end quote></div>


Actually sin is a transgression of God's will. So if you beat your kids when they curse at you, you are a sick, perverted individual, right? Well, you wouldn't be a sinner though because you are carrying out God's will. BTW, why does God have to resort to fruit to give birth to sin? The universe contains sin, God made the universe. You do the math.
If Adam and Eve were made in God's likeness, why the need for the tree of life? Surely there was no death before the fall? Adam and Eve were only mortal after they ate from the tree, so why would God put the tree that caused them to eventually die in the garden?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>sin is simply seperation from God.</end quote></div>

How on earth can anyone manage to separate themselves from an omnipresent diety? I think in Psalms it says that God is in hell. So in conclusion, this "separation from God" jargon is simply just a smokescreen to whitewash God of any crimes.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, if God is the source of life,</end quote></div>

Actually Mockingbird, the union between a female and a male is the source of life.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 </end quote></div>

If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10. </end quote></div>

I can certainly see why a parent would do this, but there's a slight difference- the parent is not omniscient; the parent doesn't know with 100% certainty what the child did. If God knew that Adam ate from the tree, and knew exactly how Adam would answer, wasn't it kinda pointless to ask? Why the exercise in futility?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you agree the serpent was in the garden, right? It also knew of evil, right? Where do you think it received this knowledge, it didn't eat from the tree? It makes sense that God had gave the serpent the knowledge of evil prior and then sent him in his garden.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is *****.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, *****, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?</end quote></div>

Well that brings us back to the original point. God would not give us Free will if we choose evil.(That's totally assuming he loves humans) If you knew your child was gonna get ran over by a big rig, would you give him the option of playing in the street? Why couldn't God create us with the knowledge instilled of the consequences of the actions that do us harm, don't you think it could have saved a lot of pain? If God created the ability to choose evil, then why are humans blamed for making bad decisions? We do not have the ability not NOT to sin. So basically, we are being blamed for something in which we cannot help but doing. God is responsible for all the inadequacies he created in us. If there is a problem with your watch, you don't blame yourself do you? No it's the watchmaker's fault for making a defective product. If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down? Sheesh, Christianity makes a huge mess out of life, and disguises itself as the remedy for it.

Solo
02-15-2008, 02:20 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity. </end quote></div>

My apologies for the late reply. I have off work every Tuesday and Wedsday; every other day is mighty hectic. With that being said, I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible. It's kinda like showing Spiderman exists by quoting Marvel comics. Quoting fiction does nothing. Mockingbird, you can sling bible quotes till your blue in the face, quoting from a book of fiction to prove that it's not fiction shows absolutely nothing; except for failure to take reality at face value. But in this case, seeing is we are talking about the God of the bible, since it is the only thing you have to show God exits, I'll deal.
But why couldn't he just think the universe into existence, or use pixie dust? What prompted God to make it, was he board? BTW, who was that speaking in Hebrews? Wasn't that Paul? How would he know anything about the creation of the universe? You can say he rested in any sense you wish; whatever helps you sleep better at night, but the fact remains that an omnipotent God had to rest.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God. </end quote></div>

No, in that scenario, if you love your child, you don't allow them the option of making a bad decision. If you had a baby in a crib, would you put a four-leaved clover on one side, then a Desert Eagle handgun in the other, and expect them to choose? Now no responsible parent would ever conceive of doing such an incompetent thing; if he did would be prosecuted for negligence. God placed two humans in a garden (It's like a baby in a crib), and placed the tree of evil and life in it. (like the four leaved clover and gun). How is this any different? Actually, I think it is worse if God knew beforehand that Adam would be tempted. Then the tree just served to tempt, and his tantrum resulted in a sadistic punishment.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in.</end quote></div>

Then why did he make it?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend.</end quote></div>


Actually sin is a transgression of God's will. So if you beat your kids when they curse at you, you are a sick, perverted individual, right? Well, you wouldn't be a sinner though because you are carrying out God's will. BTW, why does God have to resort to fruit to give birth to sin? The universe contains sin, God made the universe. You do the math.
If Adam and Eve were made in God's likeness, why the need for the tree of life? Surely there was no death before the fall? Adam and Eve were only mortal after they ate from the tree, so why would God put the tree that caused them to eventually die in the garden?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>sin is simply seperation from God.</end quote></div>

How on earth can anyone manage to separate themselves from an omnipresent diety? I think in Psalms it says that God is in hell. So in conclusion, this "separation from God" jargon is simply just a smokescreen to whitewash God of any crimes.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, if God is the source of life,</end quote></div>

Actually Mockingbird, the union between a female and a male is the source of life.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 </end quote></div>

If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10. </end quote></div>

I can certainly see why a parent would do this, but there's a slight difference- the parent is not omniscient; the parent doesn't know with 100% certainty what the child did. If God knew that Adam ate from the tree, and knew exactly how Adam would answer, wasn't it kinda pointless to ask? Why the exercise in futility?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you agree the serpent was in the garden, right? It also knew of evil, right? Where do you think it received this knowledge, it didn't eat from the tree? It makes sense that God had gave the serpent the knowledge of evil prior and then sent him in his garden.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is *****.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, *****, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?</end quote></div>

Well that brings us back to the original point. God would not give us Free will if we choose evil.(That's totally assuming he loves humans) If you knew your child was gonna get ran over by a big rig, would you give him the option of playing in the street? Why couldn't God create us with the knowledge instilled of the consequences of the actions that do us harm, don't you think it could have saved a lot of pain? If God created the ability to choose evil, then why are humans blamed for making bad decisions? We do not have the ability not NOT to sin. So basically, we are being blamed for something in which we cannot help but doing. God is responsible for all the inadequacies he created in us. If there is a problem with your watch, you don't blame yourself do you? No it's the watchmaker's fault for making a defective product. If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down? Sheesh, Christianity makes a huge mess out of life, and disguises itself as the remedy for it.

Solo
02-15-2008, 02:20 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity. </end quote></div>

My apologies for the late reply. I have off work every Tuesday and Wedsday; every other day is mighty hectic. With that being said, I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible. It's kinda like showing Spiderman exists by quoting Marvel comics. Quoting fiction does nothing. Mockingbird, you can sling bible quotes till your blue in the face, quoting from a book of fiction to prove that it's not fiction shows absolutely nothing; except for failure to take reality at face value. But in this case, seeing is we are talking about the God of the bible, since it is the only thing you have to show God exits, I'll deal.
But why couldn't he just think the universe into existence, or use pixie dust? What prompted God to make it, was he board? BTW, who was that speaking in Hebrews? Wasn't that Paul? How would he know anything about the creation of the universe? You can say he rested in any sense you wish; whatever helps you sleep better at night, but the fact remains that an omnipotent God had to rest.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God. </end quote></div>

No, in that scenario, if you love your child, you don't allow them the option of making a bad decision. If you had a baby in a crib, would you put a four-leaved clover on one side, then a Desert Eagle handgun in the other, and expect them to choose? Now no responsible parent would ever conceive of doing such an incompetent thing; if he did would be prosecuted for negligence. God placed two humans in a garden (It's like a baby in a crib), and placed the tree of evil and life in it. (like the four leaved clover and gun). How is this any different? Actually, I think it is worse if God knew beforehand that Adam would be tempted. Then the tree just served to tempt, and his tantrum resulted in a sadistic punishment.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in.</end quote></div>

Then why did he make it?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend.</end quote></div>


Actually sin is a transgression of God's will. So if you beat your kids when they curse at you, you are a sick, perverted individual, right? Well, you wouldn't be a sinner though because you are carrying out God's will. BTW, why does God have to resort to fruit to give birth to sin? The universe contains sin, God made the universe. You do the math.
If Adam and Eve were made in God's likeness, why the need for the tree of life? Surely there was no death before the fall? Adam and Eve were only mortal after they ate from the tree, so why would God put the tree that caused them to eventually die in the garden?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>sin is simply seperation from God.</end quote></div>

How on earth can anyone manage to separate themselves from an omnipresent diety? I think in Psalms it says that God is in hell. So in conclusion, this "separation from God" jargon is simply just a smokescreen to whitewash God of any crimes.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, if God is the source of life,</end quote></div>

Actually Mockingbird, the union between a female and a male is the source of life.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 </end quote></div>

If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10. </end quote></div>

I can certainly see why a parent would do this, but there's a slight difference- the parent is not omniscient; the parent doesn't know with 100% certainty what the child did. If God knew that Adam ate from the tree, and knew exactly how Adam would answer, wasn't it kinda pointless to ask? Why the exercise in futility?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you agree the serpent was in the garden, right? It also knew of evil, right? Where do you think it received this knowledge, it didn't eat from the tree? It makes sense that God had gave the serpent the knowledge of evil prior and then sent him in his garden.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is *****.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, *****, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?</end quote></div>

Well that brings us back to the original point. God would not give us Free will if we choose evil.(That's totally assuming he loves humans) If you knew your child was gonna get ran over by a big rig, would you give him the option of playing in the street? Why couldn't God create us with the knowledge instilled of the consequences of the actions that do us harm, don't you think it could have saved a lot of pain? If God created the ability to choose evil, then why are humans blamed for making bad decisions? We do not have the ability not NOT to sin. So basically, we are being blamed for something in which we cannot help but doing. God is responsible for all the inadequacies he created in us. If there is a problem with your watch, you don't blame yourself do you? No it's the watchmaker's fault for making a defective product. If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down? Sheesh, Christianity makes a huge mess out of life, and disguises itself as the remedy for it.

Solo
02-15-2008, 02:20 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity. </end quote>

My apologies for the late reply. I have off work every Tuesday and Wedsday; every other day is mighty hectic. With that being said, I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible. It's kinda like showing Spiderman exists by quoting Marvel comics. Quoting fiction does nothing. Mockingbird, you can sling bible quotes till your blue in the face, quoting from a book of fiction to prove that it's not fiction shows absolutely nothing; except for failure to take reality at face value. But in this case, seeing is we are talking about the God of the bible, since it is the only thing you have to show God exits, I'll deal.
But why couldn't he just think the universe into existence, or use pixie dust? What prompted God to make it, was he board? BTW, who was that speaking in Hebrews? Wasn't that Paul? How would he know anything about the creation of the universe? You can say he rested in any sense you wish; whatever helps you sleep better at night, but the fact remains that an omnipotent God had to rest.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God. </end quote>

No, in that scenario, if you love your child, you don't allow them the option of making a bad decision. If you had a baby in a crib, would you put a four-leaved clover on one side, then a Desert Eagle handgun in the other, and expect them to choose? Now no responsible parent would ever conceive of doing such an incompetent thing; if he did would be prosecuted for negligence. God placed two humans in a garden (It's like a baby in a crib), and placed the tree of evil and life in it. (like the four leaved clover and gun). How is this any different? Actually, I think it is worse if God knew beforehand that Adam would be tempted. Then the tree just served to tempt, and his tantrum resulted in a sadistic punishment.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in.</end quote>

Then why did he make it?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend.</end quote>


Actually sin is a transgression of God's will. So if you beat your kids when they curse at you, you are a sick, perverted individual, right? Well, you wouldn't be a sinner though because you are carrying out God's will. BTW, why does God have to resort to fruit to give birth to sin? The universe contains sin, God made the universe. You do the math.
If Adam and Eve were made in God's likeness, why the need for the tree of life? Surely there was no death before the fall? Adam and Eve were only mortal after they ate from the tree, so why would God put the tree that caused them to eventually die in the garden?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>sin is simply seperation from God.</end quote>

How on earth can anyone manage to separate themselves from an omnipresent diety? I think in Psalms it says that God is in hell. So in conclusion, this "separation from God" jargon is simply just a smokescreen to whitewash God of any crimes.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, if God is the source of life,</end quote>

Actually Mockingbird, the union between a female and a male is the source of life.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 </end quote>

If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10. </end quote>

I can certainly see why a parent would do this, but there's a slight difference- the parent is not omniscient; the parent doesn't know with 100% certainty what the child did. If God knew that Adam ate from the tree, and knew exactly how Adam would answer, wasn't it kinda pointless to ask? Why the exercise in futility?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist. </end quote>

Mockingbird, you agree the serpent was in the garden, right? It also knew of evil, right? Where do you think it received this knowledge, it didn't eat from the tree? It makes sense that God had gave the serpent the knowledge of evil prior and then sent him in his garden.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is *****.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, *****, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?</end quote>

Well that brings us back to the original point. God would not give us Free will if we choose evil.(That's totally assuming he loves humans) If you knew your child was gonna get ran over by a big rig, would you give him the option of playing in the street? Why couldn't God create us with the knowledge instilled of the consequences of the actions that do us harm, don't you think it could have saved a lot of pain? If God created the ability to choose evil, then why are humans blamed for making bad decisions? We do not have the ability not NOT to sin. So basically, we are being blamed for something in which we cannot help but doing. God is responsible for all the inadequacies he created in us. If there is a problem with your watch, you don't blame yourself do you? No it's the watchmaker's fault for making a defective product. If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down? Sheesh, Christianity makes a huge mess out of life, and disguises itself as the remedy for it.

Solo
02-15-2008, 02:20 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In the book of Hebrews, it says, "For we who have believed enter that rest, just as he has said, 'As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,' although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'; and again in this passage, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " Hebrews 4:3-6. So, we can see God did not rest in the sense that He was tired, but rather rested in fellowship with the world He had just created; or in the sense that believers will rest with Him for eternity. </end quote>

My apologies for the late reply. I have off work every Tuesday and Wedsday; every other day is mighty hectic. With that being said, I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible. It's kinda like showing Spiderman exists by quoting Marvel comics. Quoting fiction does nothing. Mockingbird, you can sling bible quotes till your blue in the face, quoting from a book of fiction to prove that it's not fiction shows absolutely nothing; except for failure to take reality at face value. But in this case, seeing is we are talking about the God of the bible, since it is the only thing you have to show God exits, I'll deal.
But why couldn't he just think the universe into existence, or use pixie dust? What prompted God to make it, was he board? BTW, who was that speaking in Hebrews? Wasn't that Paul? How would he know anything about the creation of the universe? You can say he rested in any sense you wish; whatever helps you sleep better at night, but the fact remains that an omnipotent God had to rest.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Lets say you're the parent of a child. Obviously, you don't want your child to make a bad decision, but does that mean you become overprotective of the child and never allow them to make a decision on their own? Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to make a bad decision because they love their child. If God created Adam and Eve but only gave them the option of serving Him, what kind of God would that be? Then God truly would be a fascist God. </end quote>

No, in that scenario, if you love your child, you don't allow them the option of making a bad decision. If you had a baby in a crib, would you put a four-leaved clover on one side, then a Desert Eagle handgun in the other, and expect them to choose? Now no responsible parent would ever conceive of doing such an incompetent thing; if he did would be prosecuted for negligence. God placed two humans in a garden (It's like a baby in a crib), and placed the tree of evil and life in it. (like the four leaved clover and gun). How is this any different? Actually, I think it is worse if God knew beforehand that Adam would be tempted. Then the tree just served to tempt, and his tantrum resulted in a sadistic punishment.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, it is incorrect to say that God made the pleasing in order to draw Adam and Eve in.</end quote>

Then why did he make it?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Adam and Eve did not need to be taught obedience because they were created in the likeness and image of God. When God told Adam not to eat of the tree, it was not like a parent telling a child to stay away from a hot stove, but rather a mutual understanding between God and Adam. However, Adam and Eve were both carried away and enticed by their own lust (not meaning sexual lust). They saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and it was desirable to make one wise. They lusted after the fruit, and it gave birth to sin. Lust is simply desiring something God has created in a way that God did not intend.</end quote>


Actually sin is a transgression of God's will. So if you beat your kids when they curse at you, you are a sick, perverted individual, right? Well, you wouldn't be a sinner though because you are carrying out God's will. BTW, why does God have to resort to fruit to give birth to sin? The universe contains sin, God made the universe. You do the math.
If Adam and Eve were made in God's likeness, why the need for the tree of life? Surely there was no death before the fall? Adam and Eve were only mortal after they ate from the tree, so why would God put the tree that caused them to eventually die in the garden?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>sin is simply seperation from God.</end quote>

How on earth can anyone manage to separate themselves from an omnipresent diety? I think in Psalms it says that God is in hell. So in conclusion, this "separation from God" jargon is simply just a smokescreen to whitewash God of any crimes.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, if God is the source of life,</end quote>

Actually Mockingbird, the union between a female and a male is the source of life.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As to why Adam and Eve didn't just drop dead on the spot, "Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promises, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:8-9 </end quote>

If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I would suspect for the same reason a parent would ask a child what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar, or how the window got broken, etc. We see God doing the same thing with Cain: "Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother?' and he said, "Am I my brother's keeper?' He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to Me from the ground." Genesis 4:9-10. </end quote>

I can certainly see why a parent would do this, but there's a slight difference- the parent is not omniscient; the parent doesn't know with 100% certainty what the child did. If God knew that Adam ate from the tree, and knew exactly how Adam would answer, wasn't it kinda pointless to ask? Why the exercise in futility?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It is true that the serpent could only have been in the garden if God allowed him to be there. Furthermore, God would have known full well of what the serpent was doing. So why did God allow it? God could have been overprotective and overbearing, I suppose, but once again, that would make Him a bit of a fascist. </end quote>

Mockingbird, you agree the serpent was in the garden, right? It also knew of evil, right? Where do you think it received this knowledge, it didn't eat from the tree? It makes sense that God had gave the serpent the knowledge of evil prior and then sent him in his garden.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In many parts of the Bible, it seems like God punishes the children for the sins of the parents. However, as it says, "Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12. It does not say death spread to all men because through one man sin entered the world, but rather, death spread to all men because all sinned. We are each responsible for our own sin and no one else's. There has only been one man who took the sin of others upon Himself, and that is *****.

In Him we have the choice of Adam once again. Do we take from the Tree of Life, that is to say, *****, or do we continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?</end quote>

Well that brings us back to the original point. God would not give us Free will if we choose evil.(That's totally assuming he loves humans) If you knew your child was gonna get ran over by a big rig, would you give him the option of playing in the street? Why couldn't God create us with the knowledge instilled of the consequences of the actions that do us harm, don't you think it could have saved a lot of pain? If God created the ability to choose evil, then why are humans blamed for making bad decisions? We do not have the ability not NOT to sin. So basically, we are being blamed for something in which we cannot help but doing. God is responsible for all the inadequacies he created in us. If there is a problem with your watch, you don't blame yourself do you? No it's the watchmaker's fault for making a defective product. If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down? Sheesh, Christianity makes a huge mess out of life, and disguises itself as the remedy for it.

Mockingbird
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible</end quote></div>

I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity.

<i>What does Paul know about the creation of the universe?</i>

In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13

<i> Why did an omnipotent God have to rest?</i>

It doesn't say anywhere God <i>had</i> to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while.

<i>How can anyone separate themselves from an omnipresent deity?</i>

Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices.

<i>If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?</i>

The verse in 2 Peter is speaking about time, not the meaning of words.

<i> Where did the serpent receive the knowledge of good and evil?</i>

First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil.

<i>If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down?</i>

There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions.



As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said.

Mockingbird
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible</end quote></div>

I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity.

<i>What does Paul know about the creation of the universe?</i>

In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13

<i> Why did an omnipotent God have to rest?</i>

It doesn't say anywhere God <i>had</i> to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while.

<i>How can anyone separate themselves from an omnipresent deity?</i>

Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices.

<i>If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?</i>

The verse in 2 Peter is speaking about time, not the meaning of words.

<i> Where did the serpent receive the knowledge of good and evil?</i>

First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil.

<i>If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down?</i>

There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions.



As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said.

Mockingbird
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible</end quote></div>

I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity.

<i>What does Paul know about the creation of the universe?</i>

In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13

<i> Why did an omnipotent God have to rest?</i>

It doesn't say anywhere God <i>had</i> to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while.

<i>How can anyone separate themselves from an omnipresent deity?</i>

Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices.

<i>If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?</i>

The verse in 2 Peter is speaking about time, not the meaning of words.

<i> Where did the serpent receive the knowledge of good and evil?</i>

First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil.

<i>If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down?</i>

There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions.



As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said.

Mockingbird
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible</end quote>

I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity.

<i>What does Paul know about the creation of the universe?</i>

In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13

<i> Why did an omnipotent God have to rest?</i>

It doesn't say anywhere God <i>had</i> to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while.

<i>How can anyone separate themselves from an omnipresent deity?</i>

Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices.

<i>If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?</i>

The verse in 2 Peter is speaking about time, not the meaning of words.

<i> Where did the serpent receive the knowledge of good and evil?</i>

First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil.

<i>If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down?</i>

There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions.



As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said.

Mockingbird
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I personally think it's poor taste quoting the bible</end quote>

I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity.

<i>What does Paul know about the creation of the universe?</i>

In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13

<i> Why did an omnipotent God have to rest?</i>

It doesn't say anywhere God <i>had</i> to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while.

<i>How can anyone separate themselves from an omnipresent deity?</i>

Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices.

<i>If God's day doesn't equal a human day, then why does any other word in the bible equal the human meaning?</i>

The verse in 2 Peter is speaking about time, not the meaning of words.

<i> Where did the serpent receive the knowledge of good and evil?</i>

First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil.

<i>If God created everything, tell me how he is not implicated either directly or indirectly concerning everything that goes down?</i>

There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions.



As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said.

Solo
02-16-2008, 01:45 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity. </end quote></div>

Oh but we are. You see the bible is the backbone of the Christian faith. Christianity either stands or falls in the veracity of the bible. The bible is the source of your God claims. It was written by many different authors over many different eras. All of it was penned by men, this subject to their prejudices and biases. I think it basically is about who is begotten by who and is meant to reinforce the idea of how you must worship God.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, *****; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 </end quote></div>

Well without the sermon here, why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims? Shouldn't you only take word in the horse's mouth? Paul could have been an alcoholic, or he could have been crazy. But the thing about Paul is that he needed an eyewitness encounter with Jesus to solidify his faith, but now we are to just take the word of some ancient tribals with heat stroke. God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him. Why do you think that is Mockingbird?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It doesn't say anywhere God had to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while. </end quote></div>

Imagine if you and your friends go see a movie that you already seen, in fact it's fresh in your memory. Now before everything happens, you know what the actors are gonna say and do and what goes down; the plots, subplots, etc. Wouldn't you be mighty bored if you already knew everything about the movie, opposed to seeing it for the very first time. The truth is you'd enjoy it a lot more if you didn't already know how it's going to play out.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices. </end quote></div>

And I suppose you think that's wise of him? I have a question for you Mockingbird- does God infinitely love humans? Is God all-knowing, meaning does he know what has been and ever will be? You say he wants us to have free will, but I know I'd rather be free to avoid agonizing mental and physical torture in hell when I die. Now at the onset of creation, God makes a new person, and at this time God has all the knowledge of the deeds, and choices the person will make in his life. Now when God made Jeffrey Dahmer, he knew beforehand of everything he would do. Did Jeffrey Dahmer have Free will? God makes all of us with certain tastes, preferences and intellect. I think the general consensus among psychologists is that serial killing is a compulsion. Now wouldn't the source of that compulsion just have to be our creator? How on earth could a loving, compassionate God plant evil compulsions in us and then go on to punish us for acting on these very same compulsions that he himself instilled in us? God is kinda acting like a deranged watchmaker, as he makes all sorts of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty. Evil happens because people CAN CHOOSE. Now let's say I tell you to drinka cup of urine. Now of course you'll decline (unless you have some weird compulsion) because it's disgusting. But you still could've chosen to do so; your free will is still very much intact. My point here being that God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin. Jesus had free will and he didn't sin, so God has no excuse. All the bad things that happens in this world gets shoveled right back to God.
I think Free will alone debunks the basic tenets of Christianity. Suffering is an undermining pin in the foundation of Christianity. Since God gives humans free will that equals that some of us can go to hell, without free will we all do as God wants and go to heaven. What do you hold to a higher precedent- having the choice to do harmful actions or living a life free of agonizing torture?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil. </end quote></div>

So was there someone else who created sin, that God didn't know about? I'm telling you, this whole sin argument is total negligence on the part of God. He placed evil directly in Adam's food source. Think of it like so, at the time of creation, and if God wanted to, he could have placed the evil knowledge on some beanstalk, millions of light years away. I could hide chocolate anywhere in my house, but I choose to hide it in my dog's food dish. Now Mockingbird, would you say that's right, or wrong?
God made the snake. At the time of creation, he knew exactly what it was out to do. The snake apparently had prior knowledge of evil. The only 2 places where the snake could learn about evil were the tree and God. The serpent did not eat from the tree, so we can safely assume that God gave the serpent the knowledge of evil. It matters little if you say the serpent was enticed by his lust, Genesis states that God created all animals.
If you say there was another source of sin besides the tree or God, then your God is a jackass,(excuse the language) with no clue what he is doing. Either he willingly allowed someone or something to tamper with his creation or he was unable to prevent it. Either way, why call him God then?
The story of original sin is cleverly devised hyperbole meant to control the masses. Adam and Eve were set-up by their creator right from the start. They made an honest mistake, and one that could very well had been avoided had God not wanted it to happen.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions. </end quote></div>

Well here's an analogy for you. Suppose I place 2 cars packed full with people on 2 highways. Now these roads intersect at one point, and the cars collide killing everyone in them. Now who is to blame for this unfortunate incident, the people in the cars choosing to drive them, or me, who set this whole shebang up? Now the bible is crystal clear on the fact that God is love and suffering is the result of mankind choosing to sin; that's Christianity's way of passing the buck of blame onto humans. Now the main problem I see with this little hypothesis is that humans did not create the universe, God did. If God is all knowing, and at the time of birth, he knows a baby will grow up and murder millions. Now why let this person be born only to make others suffer and eventually to suffer himself endlessly? Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more practical not to make him in the first place?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said. </end quote></div>

Fair enough.

Solo
02-16-2008, 01:45 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity. </end quote></div>

Oh but we are. You see the bible is the backbone of the Christian faith. Christianity either stands or falls in the veracity of the bible. The bible is the source of your God claims. It was written by many different authors over many different eras. All of it was penned by men, this subject to their prejudices and biases. I think it basically is about who is begotten by who and is meant to reinforce the idea of how you must worship God.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, *****; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 </end quote></div>

Well without the sermon here, why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims? Shouldn't you only take word in the horse's mouth? Paul could have been an alcoholic, or he could have been crazy. But the thing about Paul is that he needed an eyewitness encounter with Jesus to solidify his faith, but now we are to just take the word of some ancient tribals with heat stroke. God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him. Why do you think that is Mockingbird?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It doesn't say anywhere God had to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while. </end quote></div>

Imagine if you and your friends go see a movie that you already seen, in fact it's fresh in your memory. Now before everything happens, you know what the actors are gonna say and do and what goes down; the plots, subplots, etc. Wouldn't you be mighty bored if you already knew everything about the movie, opposed to seeing it for the very first time. The truth is you'd enjoy it a lot more if you didn't already know how it's going to play out.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices. </end quote></div>

And I suppose you think that's wise of him? I have a question for you Mockingbird- does God infinitely love humans? Is God all-knowing, meaning does he know what has been and ever will be? You say he wants us to have free will, but I know I'd rather be free to avoid agonizing mental and physical torture in hell when I die. Now at the onset of creation, God makes a new person, and at this time God has all the knowledge of the deeds, and choices the person will make in his life. Now when God made Jeffrey Dahmer, he knew beforehand of everything he would do. Did Jeffrey Dahmer have Free will? God makes all of us with certain tastes, preferences and intellect. I think the general consensus among psychologists is that serial killing is a compulsion. Now wouldn't the source of that compulsion just have to be our creator? How on earth could a loving, compassionate God plant evil compulsions in us and then go on to punish us for acting on these very same compulsions that he himself instilled in us? God is kinda acting like a deranged watchmaker, as he makes all sorts of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty. Evil happens because people CAN CHOOSE. Now let's say I tell you to drinka cup of urine. Now of course you'll decline (unless you have some weird compulsion) because it's disgusting. But you still could've chosen to do so; your free will is still very much intact. My point here being that God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin. Jesus had free will and he didn't sin, so God has no excuse. All the bad things that happens in this world gets shoveled right back to God.
I think Free will alone debunks the basic tenets of Christianity. Suffering is an undermining pin in the foundation of Christianity. Since God gives humans free will that equals that some of us can go to hell, without free will we all do as God wants and go to heaven. What do you hold to a higher precedent- having the choice to do harmful actions or living a life free of agonizing torture?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil. </end quote></div>

So was there someone else who created sin, that God didn't know about? I'm telling you, this whole sin argument is total negligence on the part of God. He placed evil directly in Adam's food source. Think of it like so, at the time of creation, and if God wanted to, he could have placed the evil knowledge on some beanstalk, millions of light years away. I could hide chocolate anywhere in my house, but I choose to hide it in my dog's food dish. Now Mockingbird, would you say that's right, or wrong?
God made the snake. At the time of creation, he knew exactly what it was out to do. The snake apparently had prior knowledge of evil. The only 2 places where the snake could learn about evil were the tree and God. The serpent did not eat from the tree, so we can safely assume that God gave the serpent the knowledge of evil. It matters little if you say the serpent was enticed by his lust, Genesis states that God created all animals.
If you say there was another source of sin besides the tree or God, then your God is a jackass,(excuse the language) with no clue what he is doing. Either he willingly allowed someone or something to tamper with his creation or he was unable to prevent it. Either way, why call him God then?
The story of original sin is cleverly devised hyperbole meant to control the masses. Adam and Eve were set-up by their creator right from the start. They made an honest mistake, and one that could very well had been avoided had God not wanted it to happen.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions. </end quote></div>

Well here's an analogy for you. Suppose I place 2 cars packed full with people on 2 highways. Now these roads intersect at one point, and the cars collide killing everyone in them. Now who is to blame for this unfortunate incident, the people in the cars choosing to drive them, or me, who set this whole shebang up? Now the bible is crystal clear on the fact that God is love and suffering is the result of mankind choosing to sin; that's Christianity's way of passing the buck of blame onto humans. Now the main problem I see with this little hypothesis is that humans did not create the universe, God did. If God is all knowing, and at the time of birth, he knows a baby will grow up and murder millions. Now why let this person be born only to make others suffer and eventually to suffer himself endlessly? Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more practical not to make him in the first place?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said. </end quote></div>

Fair enough.

Solo
02-16-2008, 01:45 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity. </end quote></div>

Oh but we are. You see the bible is the backbone of the Christian faith. Christianity either stands or falls in the veracity of the bible. The bible is the source of your God claims. It was written by many different authors over many different eras. All of it was penned by men, this subject to their prejudices and biases. I think it basically is about who is begotten by who and is meant to reinforce the idea of how you must worship God.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, *****; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 </end quote></div>

Well without the sermon here, why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims? Shouldn't you only take word in the horse's mouth? Paul could have been an alcoholic, or he could have been crazy. But the thing about Paul is that he needed an eyewitness encounter with Jesus to solidify his faith, but now we are to just take the word of some ancient tribals with heat stroke. God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him. Why do you think that is Mockingbird?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It doesn't say anywhere God had to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while. </end quote></div>

Imagine if you and your friends go see a movie that you already seen, in fact it's fresh in your memory. Now before everything happens, you know what the actors are gonna say and do and what goes down; the plots, subplots, etc. Wouldn't you be mighty bored if you already knew everything about the movie, opposed to seeing it for the very first time. The truth is you'd enjoy it a lot more if you didn't already know how it's going to play out.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices. </end quote></div>

And I suppose you think that's wise of him? I have a question for you Mockingbird- does God infinitely love humans? Is God all-knowing, meaning does he know what has been and ever will be? You say he wants us to have free will, but I know I'd rather be free to avoid agonizing mental and physical torture in hell when I die. Now at the onset of creation, God makes a new person, and at this time God has all the knowledge of the deeds, and choices the person will make in his life. Now when God made Jeffrey Dahmer, he knew beforehand of everything he would do. Did Jeffrey Dahmer have Free will? God makes all of us with certain tastes, preferences and intellect. I think the general consensus among psychologists is that serial killing is a compulsion. Now wouldn't the source of that compulsion just have to be our creator? How on earth could a loving, compassionate God plant evil compulsions in us and then go on to punish us for acting on these very same compulsions that he himself instilled in us? God is kinda acting like a deranged watchmaker, as he makes all sorts of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty. Evil happens because people CAN CHOOSE. Now let's say I tell you to drinka cup of urine. Now of course you'll decline (unless you have some weird compulsion) because it's disgusting. But you still could've chosen to do so; your free will is still very much intact. My point here being that God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin. Jesus had free will and he didn't sin, so God has no excuse. All the bad things that happens in this world gets shoveled right back to God.
I think Free will alone debunks the basic tenets of Christianity. Suffering is an undermining pin in the foundation of Christianity. Since God gives humans free will that equals that some of us can go to hell, without free will we all do as God wants and go to heaven. What do you hold to a higher precedent- having the choice to do harmful actions or living a life free of agonizing torture?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil. </end quote></div>

So was there someone else who created sin, that God didn't know about? I'm telling you, this whole sin argument is total negligence on the part of God. He placed evil directly in Adam's food source. Think of it like so, at the time of creation, and if God wanted to, he could have placed the evil knowledge on some beanstalk, millions of light years away. I could hide chocolate anywhere in my house, but I choose to hide it in my dog's food dish. Now Mockingbird, would you say that's right, or wrong?
God made the snake. At the time of creation, he knew exactly what it was out to do. The snake apparently had prior knowledge of evil. The only 2 places where the snake could learn about evil were the tree and God. The serpent did not eat from the tree, so we can safely assume that God gave the serpent the knowledge of evil. It matters little if you say the serpent was enticed by his lust, Genesis states that God created all animals.
If you say there was another source of sin besides the tree or God, then your God is a jackass,(excuse the language) with no clue what he is doing. Either he willingly allowed someone or something to tamper with his creation or he was unable to prevent it. Either way, why call him God then?
The story of original sin is cleverly devised hyperbole meant to control the masses. Adam and Eve were set-up by their creator right from the start. They made an honest mistake, and one that could very well had been avoided had God not wanted it to happen.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions. </end quote></div>

Well here's an analogy for you. Suppose I place 2 cars packed full with people on 2 highways. Now these roads intersect at one point, and the cars collide killing everyone in them. Now who is to blame for this unfortunate incident, the people in the cars choosing to drive them, or me, who set this whole shebang up? Now the bible is crystal clear on the fact that God is love and suffering is the result of mankind choosing to sin; that's Christianity's way of passing the buck of blame onto humans. Now the main problem I see with this little hypothesis is that humans did not create the universe, God did. If God is all knowing, and at the time of birth, he knows a baby will grow up and murder millions. Now why let this person be born only to make others suffer and eventually to suffer himself endlessly? Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more practical not to make him in the first place?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said. </end quote></div>

Fair enough.

Solo
02-16-2008, 01:45 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity. </end quote>

Oh but we are. You see the bible is the backbone of the Christian faith. Christianity either stands or falls in the veracity of the bible. The bible is the source of your God claims. It was written by many different authors over many different eras. All of it was penned by men, this subject to their prejudices and biases. I think it basically is about who is begotten by who and is meant to reinforce the idea of how you must worship God.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, *****; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 </end quote>

Well without the sermon here, why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims? Shouldn't you only take word in the horse's mouth? Paul could have been an alcoholic, or he could have been crazy. But the thing about Paul is that he needed an eyewitness encounter with Jesus to solidify his faith, but now we are to just take the word of some ancient tribals with heat stroke. God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him. Why do you think that is Mockingbird?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It doesn't say anywhere God had to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while. </end quote>

Imagine if you and your friends go see a movie that you already seen, in fact it's fresh in your memory. Now before everything happens, you know what the actors are gonna say and do and what goes down; the plots, subplots, etc. Wouldn't you be mighty bored if you already knew everything about the movie, opposed to seeing it for the very first time. The truth is you'd enjoy it a lot more if you didn't already know how it's going to play out.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices. </end quote>

And I suppose you think that's wise of him? I have a question for you Mockingbird- does God infinitely love humans? Is God all-knowing, meaning does he know what has been and ever will be? You say he wants us to have free will, but I know I'd rather be free to avoid agonizing mental and physical torture in hell when I die. Now at the onset of creation, God makes a new person, and at this time God has all the knowledge of the deeds, and choices the person will make in his life. Now when God made Jeffrey Dahmer, he knew beforehand of everything he would do. Did Jeffrey Dahmer have Free will? God makes all of us with certain tastes, preferences and intellect. I think the general consensus among psychologists is that serial killing is a compulsion. Now wouldn't the source of that compulsion just have to be our creator? How on earth could a loving, compassionate God plant evil compulsions in us and then go on to punish us for acting on these very same compulsions that he himself instilled in us? God is kinda acting like a deranged watchmaker, as he makes all sorts of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty. Evil happens because people CAN CHOOSE. Now let's say I tell you to drinka cup of urine. Now of course you'll decline (unless you have some weird compulsion) because it's disgusting. But you still could've chosen to do so; your free will is still very much intact. My point here being that God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin. Jesus had free will and he didn't sin, so God has no excuse. All the bad things that happens in this world gets shoveled right back to God.
I think Free will alone debunks the basic tenets of Christianity. Suffering is an undermining pin in the foundation of Christianity. Since God gives humans free will that equals that some of us can go to hell, without free will we all do as God wants and go to heaven. What do you hold to a higher precedent- having the choice to do harmful actions or living a life free of agonizing torture?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil. </end quote>

So was there someone else who created sin, that God didn't know about? I'm telling you, this whole sin argument is total negligence on the part of God. He placed evil directly in Adam's food source. Think of it like so, at the time of creation, and if God wanted to, he could have placed the evil knowledge on some beanstalk, millions of light years away. I could hide chocolate anywhere in my house, but I choose to hide it in my dog's food dish. Now Mockingbird, would you say that's right, or wrong?
God made the snake. At the time of creation, he knew exactly what it was out to do. The snake apparently had prior knowledge of evil. The only 2 places where the snake could learn about evil were the tree and God. The serpent did not eat from the tree, so we can safely assume that God gave the serpent the knowledge of evil. It matters little if you say the serpent was enticed by his lust, Genesis states that God created all animals.
If you say there was another source of sin besides the tree or God, then your God is a jackass,(excuse the language) with no clue what he is doing. Either he willingly allowed someone or something to tamper with his creation or he was unable to prevent it. Either way, why call him God then?
The story of original sin is cleverly devised hyperbole meant to control the masses. Adam and Eve were set-up by their creator right from the start. They made an honest mistake, and one that could very well had been avoided had God not wanted it to happen.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions. </end quote>

Well here's an analogy for you. Suppose I place 2 cars packed full with people on 2 highways. Now these roads intersect at one point, and the cars collide killing everyone in them. Now who is to blame for this unfortunate incident, the people in the cars choosing to drive them, or me, who set this whole shebang up? Now the bible is crystal clear on the fact that God is love and suffering is the result of mankind choosing to sin; that's Christianity's way of passing the buck of blame onto humans. Now the main problem I see with this little hypothesis is that humans did not create the universe, God did. If God is all knowing, and at the time of birth, he knows a baby will grow up and murder millions. Now why let this person be born only to make others suffer and eventually to suffer himself endlessly? Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more practical not to make him in the first place?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said. </end quote>

Fair enough.

Solo
02-16-2008, 01:45 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I thought we were talking about the doctrine of Christianity. </end quote>

Oh but we are. You see the bible is the backbone of the Christian faith. Christianity either stands or falls in the veracity of the bible. The bible is the source of your God claims. It was written by many different authors over many different eras. All of it was penned by men, this subject to their prejudices and biases. I think it basically is about who is begotten by who and is meant to reinforce the idea of how you must worship God.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In 2 Peter 1:21-21 it says, "Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Further, Paul writes, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words." 1 Corinthians 2:10-11.

Therefore, the writer of Hebrews was able to write about the creation of the universe, because he had within himself the Spirit of God.

Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible. For in 1 John 5:6-8, it says, "This is the One who came by water and blood, *****; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Now, the water is the Word of God and the blood is the works of God (see John 5:36-40). It is the Spirit who testifies of the water and the blood, so that we may know what comes from God and what does not. And we know that the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Therefore, it is the very Spirit within me that testifies the Bible is true. Furthermore, it is the Spirit within me who testifies of the interpretation of the Bible. For, "When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak of His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 </end quote>

Well without the sermon here, why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims? Shouldn't you only take word in the horse's mouth? Paul could have been an alcoholic, or he could have been crazy. But the thing about Paul is that he needed an eyewitness encounter with Jesus to solidify his faith, but now we are to just take the word of some ancient tribals with heat stroke. God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him. Why do you think that is Mockingbird?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>It doesn't say anywhere God had to rest. God rested because He wanted to. God had just created the world, and He wanted to sit back and enjoy it for a while. </end quote>

Imagine if you and your friends go see a movie that you already seen, in fact it's fresh in your memory. Now before everything happens, you know what the actors are gonna say and do and what goes down; the plots, subplots, etc. Wouldn't you be mighty bored if you already knew everything about the movie, opposed to seeing it for the very first time. The truth is you'd enjoy it a lot more if you didn't already know how it's going to play out.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Suppose you have a child who wants nothing to do with you. You can be physically present as much as you wish, but the child is still going to separate himself from you mentally, emotionally, and socially. Now, unlike a human parent, God has the ability to force His way in and control the child like a robot, but instead He gives us the freedom to make our own choices. </end quote>

And I suppose you think that's wise of him? I have a question for you Mockingbird- does God infinitely love humans? Is God all-knowing, meaning does he know what has been and ever will be? You say he wants us to have free will, but I know I'd rather be free to avoid agonizing mental and physical torture in hell when I die. Now at the onset of creation, God makes a new person, and at this time God has all the knowledge of the deeds, and choices the person will make in his life. Now when God made Jeffrey Dahmer, he knew beforehand of everything he would do. Did Jeffrey Dahmer have Free will? God makes all of us with certain tastes, preferences and intellect. I think the general consensus among psychologists is that serial killing is a compulsion. Now wouldn't the source of that compulsion just have to be our creator? How on earth could a loving, compassionate God plant evil compulsions in us and then go on to punish us for acting on these very same compulsions that he himself instilled in us? God is kinda acting like a deranged watchmaker, as he makes all sorts of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty. Evil happens because people CAN CHOOSE. Now let's say I tell you to drinka cup of urine. Now of course you'll decline (unless you have some weird compulsion) because it's disgusting. But you still could've chosen to do so; your free will is still very much intact. My point here being that God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin. Jesus had free will and he didn't sin, so God has no excuse. All the bad things that happens in this world gets shoveled right back to God.
I think Free will alone debunks the basic tenets of Christianity. Suffering is an undermining pin in the foundation of Christianity. Since God gives humans free will that equals that some of us can go to hell, without free will we all do as God wants and go to heaven. What do you hold to a higher precedent- having the choice to do harmful actions or living a life free of agonizing torture?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First, nowhere does it say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the only source of sin. God did not create lust for the fruit in Adam and Eve's heart, but rather they created their own lust. In the same way, the serpent was enticed by his own lust and it gave birth to sin, that is to say, evil. </end quote>

So was there someone else who created sin, that God didn't know about? I'm telling you, this whole sin argument is total negligence on the part of God. He placed evil directly in Adam's food source. Think of it like so, at the time of creation, and if God wanted to, he could have placed the evil knowledge on some beanstalk, millions of light years away. I could hide chocolate anywhere in my house, but I choose to hide it in my dog's food dish. Now Mockingbird, would you say that's right, or wrong?
God made the snake. At the time of creation, he knew exactly what it was out to do. The snake apparently had prior knowledge of evil. The only 2 places where the snake could learn about evil were the tree and God. The serpent did not eat from the tree, so we can safely assume that God gave the serpent the knowledge of evil. It matters little if you say the serpent was enticed by his lust, Genesis states that God created all animals.
If you say there was another source of sin besides the tree or God, then your God is a jackass,(excuse the language) with no clue what he is doing. Either he willingly allowed someone or something to tamper with his creation or he was unable to prevent it. Either way, why call him God then?
The story of original sin is cleverly devised hyperbole meant to control the masses. Adam and Eve were set-up by their creator right from the start. They made an honest mistake, and one that could very well had been avoided had God not wanted it to happen.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There was once a week-long summer camp where all the children were given disposable cameras for the use of taking pictures. Instead of taking pictures, however, many children disassembled the cameras and used the flash batteries as sort of a mini-stun gun. Now, I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of the disposable camera for this. I wouldn't even blame the person who provided the cameras. I would hold the children responsible for their own actions. </end quote>

Well here's an analogy for you. Suppose I place 2 cars packed full with people on 2 highways. Now these roads intersect at one point, and the cars collide killing everyone in them. Now who is to blame for this unfortunate incident, the people in the cars choosing to drive them, or me, who set this whole shebang up? Now the bible is crystal clear on the fact that God is love and suffering is the result of mankind choosing to sin; that's Christianity's way of passing the buck of blame onto humans. Now the main problem I see with this little hypothesis is that humans did not create the universe, God did. If God is all knowing, and at the time of birth, he knows a baby will grow up and murder millions. Now why let this person be born only to make others suffer and eventually to suffer himself endlessly? Wouldn't it be easier, not to mention more practical not to make him in the first place?



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>As for the rest of your questions and criticism, I don't really know how to answer them besides what I've already said. </end quote>

Fair enough.

Mockingbird
02-16-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?"



<i>God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him.</i>

Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. <u>I Dared to Call Him Father</u> by Bilquis Sheikh and <u>Secret Believers</u> by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by brother Yun also gives many good examples.

<i>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin</i>

I think He did. All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person. As it says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Romans 2:14-15

Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not.



Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar.

Mockingbird
02-16-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?"



<i>God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him.</i>

Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. <u>I Dared to Call Him Father</u> by Bilquis Sheikh and <u>Secret Believers</u> by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by brother Yun also gives many good examples.

<i>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin</i>

I think He did. All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person. As it says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Romans 2:14-15

Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not.



Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar.

Mockingbird
02-16-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?"



<i>God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him.</i>

Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. <u>I Dared to Call Him Father</u> by Bilquis Sheikh and <u>Secret Believers</u> by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by brother Yun also gives many good examples.

<i>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin</i>

I think He did. All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person. As it says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Romans 2:14-15

Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not.



Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar.

Mockingbird
02-16-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?"



<i>God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him.</i>

Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. <u>I Dared to Call Him Father</u> by Bilquis Sheikh and <u>Secret Believers</u> by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by brother Yun also gives many good examples.

<i>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin</i>

I think He did. All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person. As it says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Romans 2:14-15

Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not.



Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar.

Mockingbird
02-16-2008, 03:02 PM
You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?"



<i>God was blessed with the gift of gab in the OT, yet with all of our technological marvels we have not heard a peep from him.</i>

Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. <u>I Dared to Call Him Father</u> by Bilquis Sheikh and <u>Secret Believers</u> by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and <u>The Heavenly Man</u> by brother Yun also gives many good examples.

<i>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin</i>

I think He did. All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person. As it says, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." Romans 2:14-15

Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not.



Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar.

Solo
02-17-2008, 01:39 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passÚ, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-17-2008, 01:39 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passÚ, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-17-2008, 01:39 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passÚ, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-17-2008, 01:39 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passÚ, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Solo
02-17-2008, 01:39 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passÚ, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Mockingbird
02-18-2008, 06:21 PM
<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

Mockingbird
02-18-2008, 06:21 PM
<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

Mockingbird
02-18-2008, 06:21 PM
<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

Mockingbird
02-18-2008, 06:21 PM
<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

Mockingbird
02-18-2008, 06:21 PM
<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

Solo
02-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

Solo
02-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

Solo
02-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

Solo
02-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

Solo
02-19-2008, 12:37 AM
Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

Mockingbird
02-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

Mockingbird
02-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

Mockingbird
02-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

Mockingbird
02-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

Mockingbird
02-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

Solo
02-20-2008, 03:35 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ┐Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

Solo
02-20-2008, 03:35 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ┐Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

Solo
02-20-2008, 03:35 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ┐Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

Solo
02-20-2008, 03:35 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ┐Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

Solo
02-20-2008, 03:35 AM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ┐Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

Mockingbird
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

Mockingbird
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

Mockingbird
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

Mockingbird
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

Mockingbird
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.
<br />
<br /><i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>
<br />
<br />So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?
<br />
<br /><i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>
<br />
<br />So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?
<br />
<br /><i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>
<br />
<br />I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.
<br />
<br /><i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>
<br />
<br />Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.
<br />
<br />Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.
<br />
<br />Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.
<br />
<br />However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.
<br />
<br /><i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>
<br />
<br />There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.
<br />
<br />Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.
<br />
<br />Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.
<br />
<br />Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.
<br />
<br /><i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>
<br />
<br />This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24
<br />
<br />Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.
<br />
<br />First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.
<br />
<br />However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"
<br />
<br />Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.
<br />
<br />By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.
<br />
<br />However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

Solo
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

Solo
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

Solo
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

Solo
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

Solo
02-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote>
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<br />Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote>
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<br />Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote>
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<br />C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.
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<br />If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.
<br />
<br />But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.
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<br />Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?
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<br />Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote>
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<br />You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.
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<br />My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote>
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<br />Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.
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<br />For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote>
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<br />Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
<br />"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."
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<br />
<br />But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote>
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<br />Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote>
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<br />Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.
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<br />Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.
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<br />Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote>
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<br />Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
<br />O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
<br /> you overpowered me and prevailed.
<br /> I am ridiculed all day long;
<br /> everyone mocks me.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24
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<br />Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.
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<br />First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.
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<br />However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"
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<br />Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote>
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<br />I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote>
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<br />Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?
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<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote>
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<br />I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?
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<br />Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.
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Mockingbird
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

Mockingbird
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

Mockingbird
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

Mockingbird
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

Mockingbird
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote>
<br />
<br />That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.
<br />
<br />I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.
<br />
<br />This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:
<br />
<br />"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.
<br />
<br />Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.
<br />
<br />Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.
<br />
<br />You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.